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[Russie] Sukhoï T-50 / Su-57 PAK FA 


jeanmi
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Dans le cadre d'une cooperation franco-russe, est il completement impossible (vu que les relations s'améliorent) que par exemple dassault produise une version FR du PAK FA (fabrication en france et electronique française), sans pour autant remplacer completement le rafale?

En plus je ne suis même pas sur que la France ait vraiment besoin d'un avion de type PAK FA. Il serra beaucoup plus cher que le Rafale (il est 2 fois plus gros dont s'il est produit en France il serra aussi 2 fois plus cher) et pas beaucoup plus performant.

S'il fallait coopérer sur un avion avec les Russes, je préfèrerait qu'on coopère sur leur futur bombardier PAK DA. Au moins ça complèterait véritablement notre armée de l'air au coté du rafale.

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Il a vraiment de la gueule !

Mais y veulent vraiment pas recouvrir les tuyères xD

Ben ... quand il aura sa motorisation définitive, avec les moteurs qui sont spécifiquement en cours de développement pour lui, on en reparlera ...  ;)

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Ben ... quand il aura sa motorisation définitive, avec les moteurs qui sont spécifiquement en cours de développement pour lui, on en reparlera ...  ;)

Il a sa motorisation définitive, ça a été dit et redit par les responsables du programme. Ils envisagent une autre motorisation pour une version améliorée à l'horizon 2017~2020 mais les contrats d'étude n'ont même pas encore étés passé (enfin, ils l'avaient étés, mais il ont étés annulé entre-temps).

@+, Arka

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Il a sa motorisation définitive, ça a été dit et redit par les responsables du programme. Ils envisagent une autre motorisation pour une version améliorée à l'horizon 2017~2020 mais les contrats d'étude n'ont même pas encore étés passé (enfin, ils l'avaient étés, mais il ont étés annulé entre-temps).

@+, Arka

En 2017 il y aura combien de Pak FA d’opérationnel ? A moins que je ne soit pas plus objectif qu’un de ces mécréants de capitalistes, j’ai l’impression que le modèle 2017 serra plus le modèle pleinement opérationnel qu’une version amélioré. C’est comme si on disait que le rafale F3 de 2010 est une version amélioré, un nouveau rafale, alors qu’en réalité on dit plutôt que le rafale F1 est une présérie qui fut opérationnelle.
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Voila cette image m´interpelle car on voit les aubes des reacteurs ou des regulateurs de flux d´air ! Pour un avion qui se veut furtif, c´est assez etonnant:

http://yfrog.com/1rt50810j

Peut etre qu´il sagit d´un prototype, mais si ce probleme doit rester definitif, desole Berkut, le raptorsky finira avec un croupion deplume...

Pas topoliser je suis deja dehors....  O0----()

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En 2017 il y aura combien de Pak FA d’opérationnel ? A moins que je ne soit pas plus objectif qu’un de ces mécréants de capitalistes, j’ai l’impression que le modèle 2017 serra plus le modèle pleinement opérationnel qu’une version amélioré. C’est comme si on disait que le rafale F3 de 2010 est une version amélioré, un nouveau rafale, alors qu’en réalité on dit plutôt que le rafale F1 est une présérie qui fut opérationnelle.

Mouais, le problème c'est que la date de 2017 a peu* de chance d'être tenue. L'état ne semble pas pressé de lancer le programme du nouveau moteur, ça aurait déjà du être fait il y a 1 mois, ça a encore été reporté sine-die. Même pour 2020 ça me parait mal barré vu les déclarations persistante de Sukoi disant qu'ils sont parfaitement satisfait de l'actuel (traduction : on aura rien de mieux à proposer dans un avenir envisageable, donc on va surtout pas critiquer le moteur actuel).

@+, Arka

*Pour être clair : aucune

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Voila cette image m´interpelle car on voit les aubes des reacteurs ou des regulateurs de flux d´air ! Pour un avion qui se veut furtif, c´est assez etonnant:

http://yfrog.com/1rt50810j

Je pense depuis un moment que le niveau de furtivité du PAK FA est plus du style du Rafale que du F-22.

Et je les vois mal changer la forme des conduits des entrées d'air pour remédier à ca. Ca risquerai de demander une nouvelle forme des entrées d'air.

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Voila cette image m´interpelle car on voit les aubes des reacteurs ou des regulateurs de flux d´air ! Pour un avion qui se veut furtif, c´est assez etonnant:

http://yfrog.com/1rt50810j

Peut etre qu´il sagit d´un prototype, mais si ce probleme doit rester definitif, desole Berkut, le raptorsky finira avec un croupion deplume...

Pas topoliser je suis deja dehors....  O0----()

c'est un photoshopage fait par un allergique a tout ce qui est made in russia sur keypub , ça a été debuggé ( de mémoire le compresseur visible utilisé pour le toshoppage vient d'un SU-27 ou derivé ).

le logement des trains fait dejà faire un S a plat au conduit d'air et il y a selon toute vraisemblance un autre S dans le plan vertical + un radar blocker .

Les russes ont eu tout le temps necessaire a observer ce qui se fait a l'étranger  et comme ils ne sont pas complètement dèbs chez Sukhoi ils n'auraient pas conçu un furtif avec deux gros reflecteurs radars visible de face non ? .....n'importe quel forumer " sait " cela alors des ingés l'ignoreraient ?  :lol: absurde .

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pour les différents moyens possibles pour rendre les aubes de réacteurs invisibles, voir ici

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3Ac3f1c693-d1d6-4f37-b3fd-e7f16e087b2e&plc

pour le réacteur de cinquième génération en développement

Rivals Join For Next Stage Of PAK FA Engine

Apr 28, 2010

By Maxim Pyadushkin

Moscow

Russia’s two engine manufacturers are to collaborate on the next stage of engine development for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth-generation fighter after years of going head-to-head as rivals.

The Moscow-based Salut and United Engine Corp. (UEC) have agreed to work jointly on the so-called second-stage engine for the T-50 being developed to meet the air force’s PAK FA requirement. NPO Saturn, now part of UEC, and Salut have been competing for this program for several years, with designs known as Eniseysk-A and Eniseysk-B, respectively.

According to senior UEC executives, the workshare on the engine to replace the T-50’s current Saturn 117 will slightly favor the corporation: UEC will have 54%, and Salut the remainder.

The decision to collaborate is driven at least in part by the likely merger of the two engine producers.

The timescale for development of the powerplant remains uncertain, as the manufacturers apparently are waiting for the military to set its requirements. In March, however, Sukhoi chief Mikhail Pogosyan said the T-50 would enter service with the air force powered by the Saturn 117. He indicated development of the second-stage engine could take another decade.

The 117 was developed by Rybinsk-based Saturn as an uprated modification of the Al-31F engine. The 29,000-lb.-thrust 117 is used on the Su-35 derivative of the Su-27 Flanker. The version fitted to the T-50 prototypes is thought to produce 30,000 lb. thrust and also comes with a new full-authority digital engine control unit.

Salut’s Eniseysk-B design was recommended by the ministry’s tender commission, according to CEO Yuri Eliseev. Under the original program schedule, the two contenders were to have demonstrated the first elements of the engine by November 2008.

Discussing Eniyesk-A, Saturn CEO Ilya Fyodorov, who also is a head of the PAK FA engine program, says the company has studied some new technologies that could be applied to the development of a powerplant for the series production PAK FA in the next in 2-3 years.

The so-called third stage of engine development, a new design, was initially planned to begin at the end of 2009, but this has yet to be announced. “Nevertheless, we have completed the conceptual design of the fifth-generation engine,” says Eliseev.

He also says that in order to minimize technical risks, Salut is already testing the element of the future engine during modernization of the Al-31F series powerplants.

The first stage of this modernization, the AL-31FM1 with a new compressor, was shown at the Engines 2010 exhibition here this month. This engine has a thrust of 27,000 lb., interval between overhauls of 1,000 hr. and service life of 2,000 hr., compared to 25,000 lb. thrust, 500 hr. between overhauls and 1,500 hr. of service life for the serial AL-31F. According to Eliseev, the AL-31FM1 already powers modernized Su-27SM Russian air force fighters. He adds that it has also been approved for installation on Su-34 bombers.

A further development, the AL-31FM2, is being bench-tested, according to the Salut CEO. This engine has a new combustor chamber and turbine and reached 29,200 lb. thrust. “If we receive funding, we are ready to start serial trials of this engine in the next year,” says Eliseev.

Also on display at the exhibition was a new KND-924-3 low-pressure compressor that, together with a new six-stage high-pressure compressor, will be used for the AL-31FM3 modification. This version is expected to have a thrust of about 30,000 lb. Eliseev stresses that all the modifications retain the size of the serial Al-31F and can be installed in versions of the Su-27 in service.

The cooperation between Salut and UEC is underpinned by the anticipated merger between the two manufacturers. Eliseev was appointed deputy head of the corporation two weeks ago. According to UEC executives, the merger with Salut will start after the latter completes its consolidation with Omsk Baranov Production Co.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awst/2010/04/26/AW_04_26_2010_p31-221698.xml&headline=Rivals%20Join%20For%20Next%20Stage%20Of%20PAK%20FA%20Engine

Et la R&D sur une tuyère plate pour le nouveau moteur continue

Source: newspaper " Military-Industrial Courier "

Author: Ivan Karev

Posted: 27/04/2010 , 12:20

Began pooling the assets to create the fifth-generation aircraft engine

The success of the first flight tests of fifth-generation Russian aircraft loaded with a fair amount of optimism domestic expert community on the future of this project. But so far not been solved yet, some key issues related to the final definition of technical persons PAK FA. One of the most important - in what terms and with what result to finalize the second phase of the engine, fully meets all the requirements for turbojet for forward-looking machines. During the exhibition "Engines-2010" became known, some new information characterizing the engine, which flew the plane, but also to shape the future of cooperation development engine of the second phase.

At the airfield the Gromov Flight Research Institute. Gromov in Zhukovsky near Moscow on April 8 from Komsomolsk-on-Amur, was taken to the first flying example of the fifth generation fighter. After assembling the aircraft in late April - early May, will begin construction phase of flight tests.

Recall the first time, PAK FA rose into the sky in the Acceptance of factory tests on January 29 this year. During this stage the stability and control of machines, the work of its major systems.One of the most important components of these flights was checking the functioning of the new engine. Despite the fact that the engine for the PAK FA scheme repeats the famous AL-31F, it is 80 percent of the new parts. This low-pressure compressor, combustor, turbine, installed at an angle of 30 degrees swivel nozzle, high pressure compressor, a digital automatic control system with elements of distributed parameters and plasma ignition system.As reported in the exhibition "Engines-2010" Chief Designer included in the Saturn SEC them. AM Swinging Yevhen Marchuk, responsible for creating an engine for the PAK FA, while developing the turbojet, a series of measures to improve reliability and increase the resource.This is necessary because the engine is more intense, has a higher temperature.

Plasma ignition system - new for an Russian engine.Until now, all ignition system to increase altitude, the possibility of running at altitude turbojet used oxygen replenishment.She demanded the availability of the entire oxygen system on board and the infrastructure at the airport. When you create a PAK FA has been tasked to ensure oxygen-free starting. Plasma ignition system installed in the main combustion chamber and afterburner. According to Eugene Marchukova, know-how inherent in the very nozzle with a plasma system: it simultaneously with the filing of kerosene is organized by the arc plasma. Also, a very serious know-how inherent in the ignition where you want in a short time give a very high voltage.

The digital control system with full responsibility as applied in the domestic aircraft for the first time. As pointed out by Yevhen Marchuk, the exception is one standby centrifugal regulator, which allows for total rejection of all the electronics, for example as a result of the impact of a nuclear explosion, to return to base at a reduced mode. Digital ACS is very mobile and flexible.Previously, analog control, change control algorithm engine takes two or three months, now, this operation takes a few minutes, sometimes not even need to stop the turbojet.That is, as noted by General Designer SEC them. AM Swinging, debugging, and debugging engine run much faster. This in turn leads to compression of the timing of testing new aircraft.

The engine of the first phase for the PAK FA is built entirely on the traditional scheme. In particular, deprived of such characteristic elements as a flat nozzle, available from a competitor of our car - F-22. However, according to Eugene Marchukova, work in the field of exhaust systems are maintained. At the stage production of technical documentation are the development of a flat nozzle and the reverse.

From the viewpoint of gas dynamics of a planar nozzle clear disadvantages because when you create the need to make the transition from a circular section (engine) on the flat.Loss of traction at the same time can be 5-7 per cent.The advantage of only one thing - providing heat invisibility by closing the turbine blades flat.This mode is used is limited: it is switched on for 5-10 minutes to overcome the enemy's air defense system. To solve this problem, such losses are allowed. But the designers of Saturn are trying to minimize the loss of up to 2-3 per cent.

These deliverables should be used in the creation of the engine of the fifth generation of the second phase.So far, the most likely candidate for the development of ideology and the layout of the turbojet was considered a "Saturn", which entered the structure of the Joint Engine Corporation. However, on 14 April the appointment of Director General of Federal State Unitary Enterprise "MMPP" Salut "Yuri Eliseev, Deputy General Director of RBC is making a new bar in the situation over this very important project.

On the second day of the exhibition "Engines-2010", April 15 during a press conference Yuri Eliseev reported on what has made "Salute" with the modernization of AL-31F engines and when you create the fifth-generation turbojet.

Conditions of the competition to develop the second stage engine for the PAK FA, according to Yuri Eliseev, envisaged construction of two prototypes: "Eniseisk-A" - "Saturn" and "Eniseisk-B" - "Salute". The first stage of the contest, involving the creation of separate parts, was completed in November 2008, the second, during which participants were required to submit demonstrators nodes, finished in June of 2009. "As for the" Salute ", - said director general of the enterprise - that is the conclusion of a commission composed of representatives from the Ministry of Defense, CIAM and CSRI-30 MO, stating that the work is done in full at a level no lower than the world, the results are recommended for use in designing fifth-generation engine. As for "Saturn", they, as far as I know, the second phase has not been completed. By the third phase, the announcement is delayed from the third quarter of last year, KB Salyut created avanproekt fifth generation engine, which according to the conclusion corresponds to the technical task.

In a press release on the appointment of RBC Yuri Eliseev deputy director general of the corporation said that the concentration of efforts of the two major domestic aircraft engine structures both in management and in the production plan will solve many problems quickly and efficiently. In particular, we are talking about the project engine for the PAK FA, which has its own work and "Salute", and the company JDC, noted in the message. As stated by Yuri Eliseev, "I have never had any doubts that the engine of the fifth generation can only be created by joint efforts. Funding should go through the JDC. The question is: what KB is an ideologue of the engine, who will assemble it and who will be responsible , personal responsibility, for the result of "a matter of principle. in size should be selected on a competitive basis." Achieved designers Salyut results suggest Yuri Eliseev assume that the lead in creating the fifth generation engine must be exactly led them to the enterprise.

Yuri Eliseev said that still does not know what range of tasks in the new place will determine his employer - CEO of RBC Andrei Reus. But according to his own idea in the JDC "Salute", in particular, should take an active part in the revival of enterprises of the Samara bush, which includes OAO SNTK them. ND Kuznetsov, OAO Motorostroitel "and OAO" Samara Design Bureau of Engineering (SKBM). There, according to Yuri Eliseev, there are problems with manufacturing and testing of new parts and assemblies in the "Salute" could help Samarans. In turn, General Director of "Salute" very interested in cooperation on facilities for railway transport.According to him, "they have a pretty good result for a capacity of up to 8 MW, have experience with liquefied gas. This experience we would be very handy."

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Super, et une autre issue du même site de spotters, avec une vue éloignée de dos du T50. On voit que l'appendice caudal entre les 23 tuyères est bien volumineux (et pourrait facilement loger un petit radar arrière) :

Image IPB

On croit aussi distinguer une bonne flexion de l'aile droite de l'appareil

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On voit que l'appendice caudal entre les 23 tuyères est bien volumineux (et pourrait facilement loger un petit radar arrière)

C'est prévu il me semble , vu sur un ecorché  ;)

Par contre la " flexion " de l'aile je n'y crois pas trop , effet d'optique a mon avis ....les plans d'un chasseur plient un peu sous fort facteur de charge mais c'est imperceptible et là , le T-50 n'a fait que moins d'une dizaine de vols donc je ne pense pas qu'a ce stade ils explorent l'envellope de vol complète .......

une vidéo extrêmement interessante :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx1Z4KJCpOU notez le debattement max des Levcons quand les actuateurs ne sont pas sous pression  :O , impressionnant je trouve .....mon petit doigt me dit que le bébé va aller chercher des angles d'attaques très elevés .

les derives monoblocs aussi ont un débattement impréssionant  ce truc va nous en mettre pleins les mirettes en meeting dans quelques années  =) ....

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les dérives arrières mobiles, c'est quelque chose de fait souvent par ailleurs ? Première fois que je vois ça  :O

A priori, c'est assez rare, nous l'avons évoqué un peu plus haut.

A ma connaissance, seul le F-117 avait des dérives monoblocs jusqu'à présent.

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A ma connaissance, seul le F-117 avait des dérives monoblocs jusqu'à présent.

La vidéo est vraiment de super bonne qualité et montre bien le formidable potentiel aérodynamique de l'oiseau. "Reste plus qu'à" le doter d'un système d'armes et de senseurs performants.

Sinon, il me semble que sur le F35 aussi les dérives arrières du F35 sont mobiles (j'ai vu ça il y a qq semaines sur une vidéo YouTube justement)

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