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il y a 10 minutes, Skw a dit :

Une remontada ? Tu veux dire qu'est ici présumé le choix du Conseil Fédéral ? Parce que le vainqueur des évaluations techniques doit être connu depuis un moment ?

Oui sur le plan technique, tout est probablement joué depuis un certain temps. Après, est-ce que l'entrevue entre Joe Biden et Guy Parmelin a joué un rôle? L'article laisse entendre que Boeing a cassé les prix pour rendre son avion plus attrayant, mais je crois que Dassault a fait pareil pour le Rafale, non?.... Franchement ce sont des hypothèses tout ça...

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1 hour ago, Pousse allemand said:

I am surely a great optimist a bit paranoid but this kind of rumor can it be orchestrated to cover the F35 after the choice of a European? The Americans could claim that the F35 technically wins but that the Swiss choose a European for political reasons (threat from the far left, pressure from the EU ...)
It would save the face of the F35 at the media level.

its a very interesting perspective that the F-35 which won on cost and performance would be concerned about "Saving face". It would seem the aircraft that did not win should be concerned about "face saving" and the people or government groups coming to their rescue via political process by picking european not based on cost or performance, but bias and preference would be the ones "saving face". they lost but got picked still luckily.  typically winners don't need to "save face" its the people who lose or are embarrassed that need to save face

And if they wanted to orchestrate results, why not just say they found a European option to be the winner, and then pick the winner and buy European? done in one step.  why the theater to say the F-35 is best? and then not pick it? I would rather not be picked than found to be insufficient publicly and picked. this is going to hurt Rafale and Typhoon down the road. Its better have things remain murky. In fact its better to lose and blame politics, rather than cost and performance shortcomings being brought out in public. What does this mean for Finland? or Canada? F-35 has yet to lose a tender, with the exception of south Korea that then bought it anyway, based on what they saw. They actually moved the price cap in order to acquire it. 

 

How can Rafale win in Finland now? or how can F-35 lose in Canada? They would have to directly find the exact opposite of what Switzerland just confirmed today. 

 

its Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon that should be concerned about Saving face, because they were just found to be behind F-35. again.

 

What are Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon going to do to "save face" now? appeal to the people to pay more and get less in Switzerland? the onus is now on the "not winning" machines to save face. or don't. pretend it didn't happen and then act surprised when they other nations find out the Swiss evaluation was what they found as well. 

 

once upon a time people said the F-35 wasn't as good. Then it got better and they said "that is alright, because we are less expensive" well it looks like now that is no longer the case either. If Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet, and Gripen can't beat F-35 on cost or performance, then I have some bad news. The only way they can win, is if the F-35 loses. Its the F-35s race to lose. it is ahead. I don't think Finland or Canada are going to have different evaluation results on cost or performance than Switzerland says. that Korea says. That Australia says, that Denmark says. Does anyone else think that? Canada and Finland will magically find completely different results than all the other F-35 nations?

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il y a 1 minute, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

its a very interesting perspective that the F-35 which won on cost and performance would be concerned about "Saving face". It would seem the aircraft that did not win should be concerned about "face saving" and the people or government groups coming to their rescue via political process by picking european not based on cost or performance, but bias and preference would be the ones "saving face". they lost but got picked still luckily.  typically winners don't need to "save face" its the people who lose or are embarrassed that need to save face

And if they wanted to orchestrate results, why not just say they found a European option to be the winner, and then pick the winner and buy European? done in one step.  why the theater to say the F-35 is best? and then not pick it? I would rather not be picked than found to be insufficient publicly and picked. this is going to hurt Rafale and Typhoon down the road. Its better have things remain murky. In fact its better to lose and blame politics, rather than cost and performance shortcomings being brought out in public. What does this mean for Finland? or Canada? F-35 has yet to lose a tender, with the exception of south Korea that then bought it anyway, based on what they saw. They actually moved the price cap in order to acquire it. 

 

How can Rafale win in Finland now? or how can F-35 lose in Canada? They would have to directly find the exact opposite of what Switzerland just confirmed today. 

 

its Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon that should be concerned about Saving face, because they were just found to be behind F-35. again.

 

What are Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon going to do to "save face" now? appeal to the people to pay more and get less in Switzerland? the onus is now on the "not winning" machines to save face. or don't. pretend it didn't happen and then act surprised when they other nations find out the Swiss evaluation was what they found as well. 

 

once upon a time people said the F-35 wasn't as good. Then it got better and they said "that is alright, because we are less expensive" well it looks like now that is no longer the case either. If Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet, and Gripen can't beat F-35 on cost or performance, then I have some bad news. The only way they can win, is if the F-35 loses. Its the F-35s race to lose. it is ahead. I don't think Finland or Canada are going to have different evaluation results on cost or performance than Switzerland says. that Korea says. That Australia says, that Denmark says. Does anyone else think that? Canada and Finland will magically find completely different results than all the other F-35 nations?

 

à l’instant, Sniper a dit :

Autant je comprendrais le choix du F18 SH, autant l'eurofighter, ou pire, le F35, incompréhensible.

Le Rafale est l'avion qu'il faut à la Suisse.

 

Bien d'accord...j'ai été élevé au son des Mirage III. Nostalgique du delta

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il y a 1 minute, francois a dit :

Les offres financières ne sont pas figées à un moment donné ? 

Rien n'est figé. Il faut être terriblement naïf pour imaginer que Biden n'ait pas fait une offre extraordinaire la semaine dernière. Les Suisses ont beau se présenter comme de blanches colombes incorruptibles et respectant tous les processus, on sait très bien comment ça se passe à la fin.

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il y a 1 minute, Hussard a dit :

Je croyais que les offres finales avaient été rendues il y a déjà quelques semaines.

Voilà pourquoi, je n'y crois pas à cette histoire de REMONTADA du F35, tu n'es pas censé modifier ton offre et négocier jusqu'à la dernière seconde. Ce n'est plus un appel d'offre sinon. Ou alors avec des règles "flexibles" et je ne vois pas les Suisses avec leur rigidité procédurale transgresser leurs propres règles... 

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à l’instant, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

I am surprised by your surprise

Désolé, mais le F35 est surement un des plus, si ce n'est le plus mauvais chasseur que vous avez produit ces cinquante dernières années.

Sorry, but the F35 is probably one of the most, if not the worst fighter you have produced in the last fifty years.

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il y a 1 minute, Claudio Lopez a dit :

Voilà pourquoi, je n'y crois pas à cette histoire de REMONTADA du F35, tu n'es pas censé modifier ton offre et négocier jusqu'à la dernière seconde. Ce n'est plus un appel d'offre sinon. Ou alors avec des règles "flexibles" et je ne vois pas les Suisses avec leur rigidité procédurale transgresser leurs propres règles... 

Ca rend surtout le processus fragile du point de vue politique. La confusion n'est pas très bonne pour la suite et alimentera le discours de l'opposition.

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à l’instant, Sniper a dit :

Désolé, mais le F35 est surement un des plus, si ce n'est le plus mauvais chasseur que vous avez produit ces cinquante dernières années.

Sorry, but the F35 is probably one of the most, if not the worst fighter you have produced in the last fifty years.

Euh... c'est sans doute exagéré. Le F-35 ne tue pas ses pilotes au même rythme que le F-104 dans la Luftwaffe.

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à l’instant, Claudio Lopez a dit :

Voilà pourquoi, je n'y crois pas à cette histoire de REMONTADA du F35, tu n'es pas censé modifier ton offre et négocier jusqu'à la dernière seconde. Ce n'est plus un appel d'offre sinon. Ou alors avec des règles "flexibles" et je ne vois pas les Suisses avec leur rigidité procédurale transgresser leurs propres règles... 

Tu crois que les négos entre la France et la Suisse sur les exilés fiscaux ont respecté les procédures établies ? Crois tu d'ailleurs qu'il y a des procédures?

Existet-t-il un seul appel d'offres d'armement à plusieurs milliards qui se joue sans enjeux géo-politique stratégiques qui dépassent les bons petits fonctionnaires très professionnels, techniciens experts dans leur domaine ?

Si les suisses peuvent être respectés pour leur grande démocratie très participative, il ne faut pas imaginer que leurs dirigeants ne font pas eux aussi face à certains dilemmes lorsqu'un président américain pose sur la table une offre impossible à refuser. Et là tu peux parler procédure, hiérarchies ou autres... Ca ne vaut plus rien.

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6 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Sorry, but the F35 is probably one of the most, if not the worst fighter you have produced in the past fifty years.

Sorry, but the F35 is probably one of the most, if not the worst fighter you have produced in the last fifty years.

 sure why not? I'll agree and then I'll wonder why it was not more easily defeated. This is very much like a woman complaining about the man she used to date being "the biggest loser in the world" oh indeed, and you dated him

"if he is such an inferior specimen my friend, why is he beating you?" 

 

I am not surprised by this decision as it lines up with what many other nations have found. We can cry and make excuses, but I am not surprised by it. The F-35 has "lost" only once, in south korea to the F-15. they found F-35 to superior, but the F-35 exceeded cost. and then they adjust the price limit and picked the F-35.

its the worst thing in the world that everyone is buying. At one point maybe the observations, reach the brain. ego is a powerful thing. the brain will launch many counterattacks to protect itself. 

 

as my old sports coach use to say "if they suck, then you must double suck-- because they are beating you "

 

 

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il y a 1 minute, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

 sure why not? I'll agree and then I'll wonder why it was not more easily defeated. This is very much like a woman complaining about the man she used to date being "the biggest loser in the world" oh indeed, and you dated him

"if he is such an inferior specimen my friend, why is he beating you?" 

 

I am not surprised by this decision as it lines up with what many other nations have found. We can cry and make excuses, but I am not surprised by it. The F-35 has "lost" only once, in south korea to the F-15. they found F-35 to superior, but the F-35 exceeded cost. and then they adjust the price limit and picked the F-35.

its the worst thing in the world that everyone is buying. At one point maybe the observations, reach the brain. 

Hi there... you're right, but so far no official decision has been made. We'll have to wait Wednesday to be sure

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2 minutes ago, Teenytoon said:

Say, the Swiss affair suddenly brings a crowd of newcomers, see defectors from F16.net ... : rolleyes:

 

I was invited here by herciv, I didn't even plan on posting today, but then this news hit. and seeing as what took place on F-16.net, don't be surprised if you do indeed have some people coming here to ask "who won on cost and performance" 

Defectors? f-16.net won what are they running from? it would seem the "Defectors" will be the Rafale raiders that were just humiliated today returning with embarrassed red cheeks.

I am simply here to observe and record my observations. I am not surprised. but many others are. I have seen this before many times

 

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il y a 3 minutes, iborg a dit :

Euh... c'est sans doute exagéré. Le F-35 ne tue pas ses pilotes au même rythme que le F-104 dans la Luftwaffe.

Patrick, exagérer ?!!! Naaaaan, jamais :bloblaugh:

Et avec tes bêtises sur les F104 teutons, tu vas remettre une douloureuse pièce ds le bouzin : était-il un Widow-maker, ou moins pire que les canadiens, à peine plus pire que le Mirage III, alors qu’utilisé aux missions les plus à contre-emploi ? That is THE question :pleurec:

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il y a 21 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

its a very interesting perspective that the F-35 which won on cost and performance would be concerned about "Saving face". It would seem the aircraft that did not win should be concerned about "face saving" and the people or government groups coming to their rescue via political process by picking european not based on cost or performance, but bias and preference would be the ones "saving face". they lost but got picked still luckily.  typically winners don't need to "save face" its the people who lose or are embarrassed that need to save face

And if they wanted to orchestrate results, why not just say they found a European option to be the winner, and then pick the winner and buy European? done in one step.  why the theater to say the F-35 is best? and then not pick it? I would rather not be picked than found to be insufficient publicly and picked. this is going to hurt Rafale and Typhoon down the road. Its better have things remain murky. In fact its better to lose and blame politics, rather than cost and performance shortcomings being brought out in public. What does this mean for Finland? or Canada? F-35 has yet to lose a tender, with the exception of south Korea that then bought it anyway, based on what they saw. They actually moved the price cap in order to acquire it. 

 

How can Rafale win in Finland now? or how can F-35 lose in Canada? They would have to directly find the exact opposite of what Switzerland just confirmed today. 

 

its Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon that should be concerned about Saving face, because they were just found to be behind F-35. again.

 

What are Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon going to do to "save face" now? appeal to the people to pay more and get less in Switzerland? the onus is now on the "not winning" machines to save face. or don't. pretend it didn't happen and then act surprised when they other nations find out the Swiss evaluation was what they found as well. 

 

once upon a time people said the F-35 wasn't as good. Then it got better and they said "that is alright, because we are less expensive" well it looks like now that is no longer the case either. If Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet, and Gripen can't beat F-35 on cost or performance, then I have some bad news. The only way they can win, is if the F-35 loses. Its the F-35s race to lose. it is ahead. I don't think Finland or Canada are going to have different evaluation results on cost or performance than Switzerland says. that Korea says. That Australia says, that Denmark says. Does anyone else think that? Canada and Finland will magically find completely different results than all the other F-35 nations?

Attention aux traducteurs automatiques : Le propos de mon message c'est que je suis "optimiste" et "parano".

Mon espoir c'est que l'article est bidon, que le F35 a perdu mais que LM utilise des relais presses pour sauver la face.

Si le F35 a réellement gagné ce sera effectivement au Rafale, Eurofighter et F18SH de sauver la face sur les question de coût et d'efficacité notemment.

Les fuites bidons dans la presse ce ne serait pas une première dans les contrats d'armements.

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il y a 9 minutes, Teenytoon a dit :

Dis donc, l'affaire suisse amène subitement une foule de petits nouveaux, voir de transfuges de F16.net... :rolleyes:

Vu que certains ici sont allés faire les lourdingues là-bas, c'était prévisible. "C'est de bonne guerre."

Je continue à trouver absurde l'idée que le F-35 est moins cher parce que les pilotes jouent à DCS au lieu de faire voler l'avion. Ah oui c'est sûr ça coûte moins cher à l'utilisation si on ne l'utilise pas... Autant ne pas prendre d'avion du tout pour faire encore moins cher !

il y a 4 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

Defectors

Translation error. While it is indeed a possible meaning, this isn't the intended meaning in this case. More like visitor.

Modifié par Kelkin
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3 minutes ago, Spearfish1975 said:

Hi there ... you're right, but so far no official decision has been made. We'll have to wait Wednesday to be sure

 indeed, but the evaluation is horrific if reports are to be believed. 

 

this is an IF. of course. I reserve the right to be wrong. and I will admit it to be so when and if that time comes. however if the results do find F-35 to be both best, and least expensive, then I don't know what that means for others in other contests. 

 

I am not trying to be ugly or nasty. I am just not surprised when something like 12 nations pick F-35, and then that begins 13 nations. thats not exactly a massive shock to me. 

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