Marine Néerlandaise

[Bruno]

Merci pour ce post qui donne beaucoup d'infos HK ; au total pour un "petit" pays comme la Hollande ce sont des navires de surveillance/intervention assez ambitieux. L'absence de missile anti-navires (je verrais bien 4 Kongsberg NSM par exemple, ou des Exocets) me surprend un peu pour des navires de ce tonnage. Mais bon il y aura de la marge pour en monter plus tard (tout comme les danois l'ont prévu sur leur 4 frégates OPV "Thétis" en cas de besoin).

Les FS Floréal d'un gabarit et d'un prix plus modeste ont quand même deux exocet MM38...

[Philippe Top-Force]

Marc P nous avait fait un beau résumé de la marine hollandaise, pourrait-on continuer SVP sur ce fil de discussion et regrouper SVP les autres liens afférants à la Marine des Pays-Bas ?

http://www.air-defense.net/Forum_AD/index.php?=6802.0

La Marine Hollandaise, page 11.

http://www.air-defense.net/Forum_AD/index.php?=3739.0

Les Pays-Bas se dotent de missiles de croisière. Page 18.

http://www.air-defense.net/Forum_AD/index.php?=2856.0

LPD Hollandais en page 20.

Kronieg Marine.

[Philippe Top-Force]

The Lower House of Parliament today approved the construction of a new support vessel for the Royal Netherlands Navy. A majority of MPs gave approval to the project, after earlier resistance due to a budget overrun was overcome.

The tasks of the so-called Joint Logistics Support Ship (JSS) are to carry supplies at sea, sea basing and strategic sea lift. The former task is to base a ship at sea for conducting and supporting operations on land.

The ship, with a length of 190 meter and a width of approximately 30 meters, will be equipped with a crane and an elevator capable of lifting heavy equipment.

The ship is big enough to transport Leopard 2 battle tanks, self-propelled guns and Chinook helicopters. It will also have a rear landing deck for helicopters, and a hospital with two operating rooms.

In a few years, the JSS will replace the supply ship HMLS Zuiderkruis.

[ARPA]

C'est bizarre un porte-hélicoptères de 190 m qui ne ressemble pas à un porte-avions STOVL.

[Philippe Top-Force]

C'est bizarre un porte-hélicoptères de 190 m qui ne ressemble pas à un porte-avions STOVL.

Tout simplement, les néerlandais ne vont que commander la version CTOL F35A Lightening II. ;)

Et ils ont besoins d'un bâtiment polyvalent de logistique, soutien, ravitailleur, amphibie.

[BPCs]

Tout simplement, les néerlandais ne vont que commander la version CTOL F35A Lightening II. ;)

Et ils ont besoins d'un bâtiment polyvalent de logistique, soutien, ravitailleur, amphibie.

Sauf que les Français commandent pourtant un pont plat (le BPC...) alors qu'ils ne prévoient ni STOVL ni STOBAR :lol: :lol:

[pascal]

attention ne pas confondre ce navire est un supply Pre et ce design  se rapproche du projet canadien pour remplacer les classe P; pétrolier, ravitailleur, soutien logistique 

[ARPA]

Tout simplement, les néerlandais ne vont que commander la version CTOL F35A Lightening II. ;)

Bah heureusement qu’ils n’ont pas commandé de F35B avant son premier vol et avant d’avoir de porte-aéronefs capable de l’accueillir.

Mais vu que c’est un pays qui a eu un prote-avion jusqu’à la fin des années 60, la commande d’une petite dizaine de F35B pourrait parfaitement se justifier. Surtout qu’il s’agit d’un avion très proche du F35A et qu’une mutualisation de l’entretien avec d’autres utilisateurs du F35B est possible.

Et ils ont besoins d'un bâtiment polyvalent de logistique, soutien, ravitailleur, amphibie.

Mais je suis plus d’accord avec cette explication, il s’agit plus d’un pétrolier pouvant servir de porte-hélicoptères. Et je ne vois pas l’intérêt de mettre des F35B sur un pétrolier.

[Dadou]

Une autre vue avec les futurs OPV classe Holland

Lancement de la première Holland le 09 novembre ( mise en service en mai 2011), les autres se nommeront Zeeland, Friesland et Groningen

[Philippe Top-Force]

Le JSS de 28.000 tonnes pour 205 mètres a été commandé, annonce DSI.

Par contre, il pourraît aussi convenir au Canada qui cherche lui aussi à s'en doter.

[g4lly]

Reduction d'équipage, défaut de protection et autres nonsens générateur d'économie...

The Holland-class OPVs Will Need A Change

Background

On December the 20th in 2007 the Dutch MoD and Schelde Marinebouw (now: Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding) signed a contract for the construction of 4 patrol vessels. These vessels were the result of the Marinestudie 2005 which proposed to sell 4 M-class (Karel Doorman class) frigates. With that money 4 patrol vessels should be bought, the Marine Corps should be strengthened, getting more capabilities for the successor of AOR HNLMS Zuiderkruis (the contract for this Joint Support Ship was signed this December) and re-introducing a minesweeping capability (in 2009 5 companies have send their proposals after a RFI).

However, even prior to signing the contract then Deputy Minister Cees van der Knaap criticised the Dutch defence industry.

    A few years ago during economic hardship the Ministry, according to Van der Knaap, 'stuck out its neck to help the business ". As main example the Deputy Minister mentioned the acquisition of four patrol vessels. These had no priority for the MoD, but to prevent the industry from having empty shipyards, it was decided to buy the ships.

Characteristics

For an OPV - called Ocean Going Patrol Vessel by the MOD - it's huge at 3750t. Even if the MoD calls them 'small flexible patrol vessels'. It's bigger than the 3320t M-class it replaces.

There are a couple of reasons for this. First, mild steel is used to build the vessels. This is heavier than the high tensile steel used for frigates. Mild steel is cheaper and since the ships will only do 22 knots, high tensile steel is not necessary. A plus is that this cheaper steel is actually more blast resistant. The second reason is the use of a lot of armour on the ships and the last reason is the need to operate the NH-90 helicopter up to Sea State 5.

Length: 354ft.

Propulsion: Diesel-electric

Max Sustained Speed: 22kts

Range: 5000nm (@15kts)

Endurance: 21 days

Crew: 50 (max. 90 + 100 evacuees)

Armament: 1x 76mm Oto Melara, 1x30mm Marlin WS, 2x 12.7mm Hitrole (all remotely operated)

Stern Launch: 1

RHIB Davit: 1 RHIB

Aviation Facilities: One NH-90 + hangar

Cost: €120 million a piece of which about €30 million is for the Integrated Mast from Thales.

On paper it actually has a lot in common with the notional characteristics of the future Offshore Patrol Cutter from the USCG.

Missions

The missions the OPV's are intended to do are at the lower end of the spectrum of conflict. And compared to the M-class the OPV's are supposed to be a lot cheaper to use. The OPV's will do Coast Guard type duties -patrolling the Exclusice Economic Zones of the Kingdom of the Netherlands- and Maritime Security Operations around the globe. A lot of these MSO's tend te be relatively close to shore and not in the 'blue water'. Examples of these MSO's would be the current operations of the coast of Somalia against pirates (although that one is moving more and more towards the open ocean) and the UNIFIL Maritime Task Force that tries to prevent smuggling, especially of arms to Libanon.

What stands out

Looking at its intended missions, there are 4 things about the OPV's that really stand out. The first is the lack of a CIWS, the second is the Integrated Mast and all its capabilities, the third one is the lack of 'provisions for' and the last is its lean manning.

A CIWS is wat the Holland class is really missing. And having no "provisions for" means that the through-deck Goalkeeper is a no-go. Both the Phalanx and the Rolling Airframe Missile are options though. The SeaRAM that's currently being developed would be easier than the RAM, since the RAM must be integrated with the ship's combat system and the SeaRAM would have it's own independent sensors.

The capabilities of the Integrated Mast are really good (at least on paper). They are actually way beyond what an OPV would need. The reason that they did buy those masts is the Defence Industry Strategy from the MoD. This Strategy has highlighted 6 technology areas in which the Dutch Defence Industry has chances of developing products that could attract international customers. Sensor systems is one of these areas and so to help industry the Dutch MoD acts as launching customer.

The absence of 'provisions for' means that upgrade possibilities in armament are very limited.

The lack of a X-band Fire Control Radar means that the Seasparrow Missiles the M-class did have can't be used. For terminal guidance these and its successor the Evolved Seasparrow, require a X-band FCR.

And though the SM-6 would be a possibility, because it has active homing, adding a VLS means a rework of the internal layouts to the point that building a new ship would be easier. The same goes for the active homing MBDA Mica, which has another drawback: it would be a new addition to the Dutch inventory. And I do think these missile systems are too much for the Holland class and its intended missions.

There are however two other options. One is the possibilty to add point deffence missile launchers to the Marlin. There is a module to add MBDA's Mistral to the Marlin WS. The other one is to add the STRALES system to the 76mm. The first fully operational 76/62 STRALES should be installed on board an Italian Navy ship at the end of this year.

The lean manning is one of the reasons the costs of operation for the OPV are much lower than for those of an M-class frigate, since the OPV's have about 1/3 of the manning of the M-class.

The lean manning might make the ship relatively inexpensive to operate, but it has a couple of drawbacks. The small crew has been accomplished by a lot of automation, but that comes at certain risks. The biggest reduction to the crew has been achieved by the automation of damage control, which means that the crew size for damage control has been reduced a lot. But it does mean that there are few people to repair the ship in the event of an emergency, so it has to get into port for repairs much earlier than a frigate. And lets hope there's never a malfunction in this control system, because there are not enough people on board to take over.

The Marlin and Hitroles are both remotely operated. An operator has to point them to a target, but after that the Combat Management System takes over.

The main problem I see with the lean manning however are not in the above points, but with operating the sensor systems. I think that the Dutch Navy should assign someone to implement the proposal of Lt. dr. ir. Wilbert van Norden on a new decision support system by on the OPVs - in its wisdom the Navy has decided to assign Van Norden to HNLMS Evertsen for 3 years, instead of letting him implement his proposal on the OPVs. In his disertation Sensing What Matters he writes:

    Decision support functionalities are needed to support the human operators on board Royal Netherlands Navy ships since the missions are increasingly complex and they take place in increasingly complex environments. Furthermore, growing complexity in sensor systems requires more knowledge to utilise these sensor systems to their fullest potential. The available human knowledge on board rnln ships however is decreasing due to a strive to reduce ship's complements and to reduce their training and education time. Where previously each individual sensor was assigned to a specialised operator, now one generic sensor operator is expected to control all sensors together.

The increasingly complex missions and environment he refers to are the missions in the littoral. There are a lot of vessels in the littoral, but not all are adverseries. Just look at the current operations of Somalia. There are a lot of skiffs out there, but not every skiff has pirates on board.

Operating sensor systems close to land is more difficult than on the open ocean. Near land the weather changes faster, making sensor performance harder to predict. There's also land clutter influencing sensor systems. The above makes it harder to find your targets, resulting in a small amount of time left in which to react. And having only a few operators makes it even more difficult than it already is.

Conclusion

With its Integrated Mast the operators on board will have a really clear picture of that anti-ship missile coming in. And while the greater range Mistral or STRALES system are nice to have, it's actually te CIWS that is really missing. This is after all an OPV, with a need for defence against an unforseen AShM or low slow flyer, and not a frigate. Everybody knows the story of what happened to INS Hanit and it shows that even these MSO's are not without danger. And who guarantees that Somali pirates can't get their hands on a Silkworm.

So for MSO operations, such as those mentioned already, a CIWS is absolutely necessary. Any suggestions that the OPV will be protected by coalition ships in these events is utter nonsence, since the ships aren't sailing in close tactical formation. They are widespread along the coastline and other ships will be too far away to offer any assistance. So the OPV has to be able to protect itself against an unforseen event. And while you may have a choice to not send the Holland-class on MSO's, that would effectively make it a Coast Guard ship without any need for either its current weaponry or sensor system.

A lot of times the OPV's will be operating in the littoral. A really complex environment with a lot of vessels, not all of whom are adverseries, and land nearby, which results in a lot of land clutter in the sensor systems. Both mean that you need more people to operate effectively in the littoral than on the open ocean. But the OPV's have a much smaller crew than the ships the Netherlands uses for these littoral tasks at the moment.

A new decision support system, such as the one proposed by Lt. dr. ir. Wilbert van Norden, could alleviate this problem.

So in its current form the Holland class are not the right ships for all of its intended missions. But this should be relatively easy to correct.

[Bruno]

Une petite vido sympa du nouvel OPV (classe "Holland") :

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2QRKYQjKM8&feature=player_embedded

Et une photo récente du gros bébé batave en phase finale de construction :

Ce qui m'étonne un peu c'est qu'ils n'aient pas choisit la version à tourelle furtive du canon de 76mm (comme sur nos HZ et FREMM), alors qu'ils ont visiblement essayé de réduire la signature radar de ces navires en tout cas de face ...

[Philippe Top-Force]

Qu'est-ce que cela apporterait pour un OPV, un canon furtif presque aussi cher? De plus, rien ne dit si ce canon n'est pas d'occasion et repris sur un ancien bateau.

[Cassius]

Je ne sais pas ce qu'il vaut cet OPV, mais il a de la gueule.

[tom]

je dirais qu'il a une gueule de yath de plaisance 

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

Exactement ce à quoi j'ai pensé!! :lol:

[Bruno]

Qu'est-ce que cela apporterait pour un OPV, un canon furtif presque aussi cher? De plus, rien ne dit si ce canon n'est pas d'occasion et repris sur un ancien bateau.

Mouais c'est sans doute pour ça : les néerlandais font probablement comme les espagnols qui équiperont leurs BAM avec des canons de 76mm déjà en dotation repris des anciennes corvettes.

Sur la vidéo présentant le nouvel OPV on voit que sur le flanc tribord, à la place de l'emplacement pour grand RHIB qu'il y a sur le flanc babord il y a une grande grue, mais à part le pont arrière de l"hélico je vois pas trop où les charges lourdes et encombrantes que cette grue permettra d'embarquer ou débarquer seront entreposées.

Dans leur mâture intégrée Thalés "I-Mast 400" ces OPV auront un radar à antennes fixes et planes pour la veille longue portée (c'est le modèle SeaMaster 400), qui est censé permettre la détection d'objectif aérien à 140nm (255 km). Ce matériel est une synthèse des SMART-L, SMART-S Mk2 et APAR.

Si cette performance donnée est valable pour des aéronefs d'1m² de SER, on peut dire que les OPV de classe Holland auront la même capacité de veille aérienne que nos Fremm ASM ! =|

La boule au sommet du mât c'est pour la réception satellite.

Une petite vidéo sympa où on voit le I-Mast 400 "fonctionner" :

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sMgEsHC1Lc&feature=player_embedded#!

Une autre vidéo "promotionnelle", au début très humoristique, qui présente cette fois l'ensemble de la famille des I-Mast :

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YgxCTd1pyo&feature=related

Doc de Thalès sur le SeaMaster400 : http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/a67c72c4-e489-4e42-83dd-112c50709000.pdf?LangType=2057

[g4lly]

Les Holland Class n'ont d'OPV que le nom ... il font pres de 4000t ! Et coute pas loin de 150M€ chaque ...

[Chevalier Gilles]

quelqu'un de volontaire pour faire la page wikipedia en français sur les opv comme ca on aura une bonne synthèse qui se complètera au fur et a mesure et on ne devra pas chercher des infos disparates

merci

[pascal]

Le problème des hollandais c'est qu'à part les Zeven Provincen ils ont tout bazardé. Donc pour faire les petits boulots il leur faut bien qq chose qui soit plus sérieux qu'une P 4000

[Philippe Top-Force]

Le problème des hollandais c'est qu'à part les Zeven Provincen ils ont tout bazardé. Donc pour faire les petits boulots il leur faut bien qq chose qui soit plus sérieux qu'une P 4000

Quand même, ils sont loin d'être ridicule par rapport à leurs voisins du Sud ou du Nord.

4 Destroyer lance missiles, 2 frégates ASM, 4/6 sous-marins, un Korps Mariniers, 20 NH90, de 2 LPD, des Chinook/Cougar/Apache à apponter.Des patrouilleurs, ...

[pascal]

4 DD lance missile et 2 F ASM pour assurer le contrat OTAN ET aller faire la police en Indien c'est peu

surtout si on s'inscrit dans la durée

la déflation des moyens navals hollandais depuis 10 ans est assez remarquable

[Chevalier Gilles]

pas que les hollandais, mon beau pays aussi

[Philippe Top-Force]

4 DD lance missile et 2 F ASM pour assurer le contrat OTAN ET aller faire la police en Indien c'est peu

surtout si on s'inscrit dans la durée

la déflation des moyens navals hollandais depuis 10 ans est assez remarquable

Je ne dis pas le contraire, les néerlandais se sont embarqués dans 2 guerres Irak puis Afghanistan, et ils en portent les conséquences depuis.Même s'ils viennent de se retirer des 2 pays.Ils ont du tomber à 90 MBT Léopard 2A6.Mettre des PzH 2000 automoteurs sous cocon sur les 57, tout comme 6 Apache sur 30.Réduire les flottes de combat et vendre des F16 et des frégates d'occasion..,

Ils ont 2 LPD/TCD et donc déployer leurs 184 CV9035Mk III, 200 Boxer MRAV, leurs Viking Bv10S, des fusiliers marins, ils ont reçu les premiers NH90 navals.Hélas, ils n'ont pas pû commander des TacTom.Ils pourraient s'équiper de SM3. 

Néanmoins, leurs chantiers Schelde Damen et Thales NL peuvent équiper leurs flottes en renouvellement.

[Dadou]

La marine hollandaise devrait subir des coupes dans les mois/années à venir =

- Retrait des 2 dernières classe M

- Vente de 2 des 4 OPV Holland

- Voir la suppression de la composante Sous-marins

IL est bien loin le temps ou elle allignait 10 Kortenaer, 2 tromp, 6/8 SM.............