Tetsuo

appel d offre finlandais

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Il y a 2 heures, DarkSablo a dit :

Pourraient ils etre intéressés pour ces raisons par une version M ? 

Je crois que même les versions de l'AdA possèdent un brin d'arrêt.

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il y a 9 minutes, rendbo a dit :

Un détail au moins :le plus bel avion du monde...

OK, je sors...

"Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder" :happy:

Garde moi une place dehors...

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il y a 11 minutes, Dorfmeister a dit :

"Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder" :happy:

Garde moi une place dehors...

Yep (j'ai failli écrire "le plus bel avion du monde, un poil devant le SU-30") !

Comme ça on verra qui de nos gamins explique/parle le premier le "bel avion Tupolev"... :bloblaugh:

Edited by rendbo

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Il y a 9 heures, Banzinou a dit :

Je crois que même les versions de l'AdA possèdent un brin d'arrêt.

bien sur... ;) la majorité des avions de chasse en ont. même le 2000 (en option) ;)

ca dépend de la doctrine employé pour les atterrissages d urgences.

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La Finlande vient d'envoyer sa RFI pour le remplacement de sa flotte de Hornet.

Citation

The goal of the RfI is to establish the true weapons and equipment options offered by the candidates for the HX project (F/A-18, Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35 and JAS Gripen). To be able to compare capabilities, information will be collected also on prices, availability, life-cycle costs and integration into different fighter models. Together with the future multi-role fighter, weapons and equipment will form an entity fit for task. Procurement of weapons and equipment is part of the HX project and is included in the budget.

The deadline for answers to the preliminary RFIs is in mid-June. The actual RfIs on weapons and equipment will be sent in August-September 2017.

http://puolustusvoimat.fi/en/article/-/asset_publisher/puolustusvoimien-logistiikkalaitos-lahetti-hornetin-seuraajahankkeen-aseistusta-ja-muita-varusteita-koskevan-tietopyynnon

Edited by Stepfox
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il y a 28 minutes, Stepfox a dit :

A quel titre Israel serait concerné par l'appel d'offres ? Une suite électronique, des pods ou munitions pour un/certains des avions candidats ?

PS : 54 F-18 à remplacer, même si rien ne garantit que ce soit à nombre identique, ce n'est pas un si petit marché.

Edited by Skw

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il y a 20 minutes, Skw a dit :

54 F-18 à remplacer, même si rien ne garantit que ce soit à nombre identique, ce n'est pas un si petit marché.

Et ce pays a fait preuve d'indépendance, dans le passé... Y compris pour ne pas prendre le Gripen  !

Universal Saint Wikipedia dit: "La Finlande a choisi de commander le 5 juin 1992, 57 F-18C et 7 F-18D pour remplacer ses MiG-21 et ses Saab 35 Draken. Il était alors en concurrence avec le Mirage 2000-5, le F-16A/B et le Saab JAS 39 Gripen, puis le MiG-29" 

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1 hour ago, mehari said:

Je pense que les Finlandais vont faire très attention à ce que les Belges demandent, observent et achètent.

fort possible sauf que la Belgique a pas les russes pr frontieres... ni de vocation nuke? et une posture defensive, avec peu d'opex

je vous parle meme pas du sentiment la bas envers les francais / produits francais... 

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il y a 19 minutes, mgtstrategy a dit :

je vous parle meme pas du sentiment la bas envers les francais / produits francais... 

Depuis l'affaire de l'EPR d'olkiluoto, il y a de quoi, et je les comprends...

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La Fiat de mon voisin fonctionne mal, j'aime pourtant le M346 ... Vous êtes sur que notre image pour un projet  a vraiment un impact ?

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On peut le dire d'ailleurs : depuis le 3310, Nokia fait vraiment des produits pourris.

Bon alors, ces Rafale ?

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48 minutes ago, mgtstrategy said:

fort possible sauf que la Belgique a pas les russes pr frontieres... ni de vocation nuke? et une posture defensive, avec peu d'opex

je vous parle meme pas du sentiment la bas envers les francais / produits francais... 

Peu d'opex? regarde et le passé et le RFI Belge : ils demandent 6 avions dispo pour opex en permanence.

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il y a 22 minutes, prof.566 a dit :

Peu d'opex? regarde et le passé et le RFI Belge : ils demandent 6 avions dispo pour opex en permanence.

Non, c'est la Finlande qui fait peu d'opex et qui n'a pas de vocation nuke, mais qui a la Russie à ses frontières et donc une posture essentiellement défensive.

Il faut savoir décoder le mgtstrategy : chez lui, le "..." veut dire qu'il change complètement d'idée en cours de route. Ca provoque la négation de la proposition suivante. Et pour celles qui suivent, c'est un peu au petit bonheur.

Il faut donc comprendre que, dans son esprit, la Belgique a une vocation de porteur nucléaire. Et qu'en plus, elle n'a pas une posture spécifiquement défensive (au contraire de la Finlande) ce qui implique qu'elle fait plus d'Opex que cette dernière.

:combatc::combatc::combatc:

 

Edited by FATac

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1 hour ago, FATac said:

Non, c'est la Finlande qui fait peu d'opex et qui n'a pas de vocation nuke, mais qui a la Russie à ses frontières et donc une posture essentiellement défensive.

Il faut savoir décoder le mgtstrategy : chez lui, le "..." veut dire qu'il change complètement d'idée en cours de route. Ca provoque la négation de la proposition suivante. Et pour celles qui suivent, c'est un peu au petit bonheur.

Il faut donc comprendre que, dans son esprit, la Belgique a une vocation de porteur nucléaire. Et qu'en plus, elle n'a pas une posture spécifiquement défensive (au contraire de la Finlande) ce qui implique qu'elle fait plus d'Opex que cette dernière.

:combatc::combatc::combatc:

 

pas du tout, je parlais de la finlande, car nous sommes sur ce fil la, et non de la belgique @prof.566   :) 

je précise que je connais très bien la finlande d'ou mon commentaire sur le ressenti de la technologies et de maniere générale leurs a prioris sur l'ingenerie FR. Apres, est ce que ca peut avoir un impact dans le choix... 

Edited by mgtstrategy

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My bad ...

Mais à comparer la Finlande et la Belgique, on ne sait plus quelle est la référence ni par quel bout prendre la mise en relation.

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Vu sur Indian Defence, ce blog finlandais  avec quelques articles sur l'appel d'offre...

Les commentaires sont intéressants à regarder car ils sont montrent la tendance de l'opinion générale (et c'est pas gagné).

The Real Joint Strike Fighter – Commonality and Maintenance

Révélation

Operating a fleet of seven different tactical jets is a daunting task when it comes to logistics and the cost of keeping all of them relevant and up to date in an ever changing combat environment. The answer is, on paper, simple: design a single fighter that will replace all seven, being able to perform a host of different missions, including air-to-air, air-to-ground, and reconnaissance. This aircraft would be a joint design operated by both the Navy and the Air Force, from land bases as well as carriers, and used for both the strike and fighter mission by both. A real joint strike-fighter.

There has been a few aircraft capable of this feat, mainly the legendary F-4 Phantom II and the F/A-18 Hornet currently in Finnish service, and as is well known the F-35 is set out to be the next fighter built according to this concept. However, for the F-35 the differences between the versions are so large they only share 20-25 percent commonality, leading to critique that the basic idea is flawed.

Enter the Dassault Rafale, an aircraft actually able to replace seven different tactical aircraft with a single airframe[1], featuring only small modifications to create single- and two-seater land based versions as well as a single-seat carrier based fighter. “They are all the same,” Dassault Aviation explained. “It’s the same aircraft, same engines, same wing. The only differences are the strengthened landing gear and tail hook, as well as the integrated boarding ladder in the Rafale M, as the navy don’t want to have ladders standing on the flight deck.” Crucially, many of the particularities that the Finnish Air Force is looking for in HX are found in the Rafale as a consequence of the design decision to create a minimal-change navalised version:

The compact size of the aircraft, which allows straightforward operations on crowded carrier decks or narrow taxiways

Ease of maintenance, all service can be done without fixed installations and “in the shadow of the aircraft”

Low approach speed and good short field performance

The maintenance need should be discussed a bit further in detail. The engine can be swapped in under an hour, and requires no further testing before the aircraft is ready to go. The aircraft can also stand on the deck of a carrier or parked out in the open for prolonged times without any external connections (such as power supplies or A/C).

France has a long history of interventions in the former colonies in Africa, often including operations with minimal support in arid conditions. Earlier the rugged Jaguar and Mirage F1 had been the tools of choice for these missions, and questions were raised if the much more complex Rafale would be able to continue their legacy. However, the fighter proved the doubters wrong, with e.g. Operation Serval showing their ability to operate from austere conditions, where nothing but tents were available to protect the aircraft during maintenance. Similarly, the aircrafts have operated in harsh conditions from a number of bases, including during the recent campaigns in Syria and Iraq, as well as in Djibouti and Afghanistan. However, it is one thing that the aircraft can keep up a high tempo of operations in the dry and dusty Sahel, it is another thing to do so in the Finnish winter. Dassault Aviation readily admits they have “less experience in very cold [conditions]”, but Rafale was successfully evaluated in the Swiss winter, and have deployed to Kandahar in sub-zero conditions for combat operations. Overall, the company seems confident that the proven durability of the aircraft during long deployments on carrier decks and from austere field bases will add up to excellent availability also in the sub-arctic.

[1] For those counting, I am referring to the F-8 Crusader, Jaguar, Super Etendard, Mirage F1, Mirage IV, Mirage 2000 in the fighter versions (C/RDI, and -5), as well as the Mirage 2000D/N strike versions. The exact number of different aircraft replaced can be anything between six and nine depending on how you count.

https://corporalfrisk.com/2016/06/27/the-real-joint-strike-fighter-commonality-and-maintenance/

Et celui-ci qui revient sur l’élimination du -5 au coup précédent (coût de la maintenance):

Révélation

Like the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale made a rare visit to Finland earlier this year. However, a significant difference between the two visits was that while the ‘Super Bugs’ were leased by Boeing to take part in two air shows and a short stay at the Finnish Air Force’s research and evaluation facilities at Tampere-Pirkkala, the French fighters arrived as part of normal Armée de l’air operations when they participated in the international Arctic Challenge Exercise. The French contribution was made up by six single-seat Mirage 2000 and three two-seat Rafale B, all of which were based at Rovaniemi AFB in the northern parts of the country for the duration of the exercise.

The decision to send two-seaters was something which raised my curiosity already as the first pictures of the aircraft touching down started to appear. Luckily, while the Dassault did not bring an aircraft to this year’s Finnish air shows, they did have a nicely sized stand in Helsinki, where I got to sit down and have a chat with company representatives.

Dassault was keen to point out that ACE17 was an air force exercise that they as a manufacturer had no real connection to, they did confirm that the decision was made by AdA to send two-seaters in order to provide familiarisation opportunities. The three Rafales seems to have flown most of the time with a foreign pilot as a backseater, providing a “good opportunity” to show off the aircraft, as Dassault put it.

The choice of squadrons were also interesting. ETR 3/4 ‘Aquitaine’ is the operational conversion unit, responsible for training both AdA and Marine Nationale Rafale air crews, while EC 1/4 ‘Gascogne’ is the land-based strike squadron of the Force de Dissuasion, the French nuclear strike force. The third and final aircraft bore the badge of legendary fighter squadron EC 2/30 ‘Normandie-Niemen’, which is nominally a single-seat Rafale C squadron (focused on ground-attack) but which is known to have operated a handful of two-seaters to assist in the training of younger pilots. Especially the inclusion of the inclusion of the ‘Gascogne’-fighter is interesting. The nuclear strike role means that the squadron places a high emphasis on operations at low level and high speed (down to 60 meters over land and 30 meter over water, at speeds up to Mach 0.9 / 600 knots). While the Rafale’s automatic terrain following system wasn’t likely pushed quite to these limits during ACE17 (due to having a foreign backseater, lack of terrain data of Lappi, and height restrictions during the exercise), it certainly gave an opportunity to show of one of the strong points of the Rafale.

Dassault assured that the fighter operated without issue over the Finnish north, with the most dramatic episode being a bird strike experienced during a sortie with a French pilot and a foreign backseater. Even this wasn’t too much of an story, as it was only noticed once the plane had landed.

Back to Dassault: While they naturally weren’t able to comment on the details of the request for information related to the Finnish HX-program, they did describe it as “very interesting as far as the opposing power goes”, noting the high-end threat environment the HX has to be able to operate in. As discussed at length last summer in a series of posts, Dassault’s solution to the Finnish request is to emphasise the complete package. “It is not a question of just technical capability”, as Dassault explains. “There’s no golden solution, but a mix of capabilities is needed.” In practice, this means that Dassault strives to develop all parts of the aircraft in conjunction with each other. With an eye towards the other eurocanards adopting the Meteor very-long range missile before integrating AESA-radars, Dassault’s representatives pointed out that they first focus on the sensors, and then integrate the weapons which can take advantage of sensor developments. A complete concept, multirole, and flexibility are the keywords when Dassault tries to sell their fighters.

However, all is not unicorns and roses for the French fighter. Early July, Finnish tabloid Iltalehti published a long article on the earlier Finnish fighter program which eventually lead to the choice of the F/A-18C Hornet. While the analysis was rather poor (see Twitter rant), it did for the first time provide access to the secret memo presented to the politicians outlining the reasoning behind the Air Force favouring the Hornet. Dassault’s offering back then was the Mirage 2000-5, which was the only fighter besides the F/A-18C/D Hornet that was deemed to fulfil the requirements of the Air Force. The MiG-29, JAS 39A/B, and F-16 (my understanding is that the C/D was offered, but I am unsure about exact version) failed to meet the mark. The Mirage 2000-5 is described in the brief as follows:

Mirage 2000-5 fulfils the requirements of the Air Force, but the aircraft’s maintenance system is difficult for us, and life-cycle costs are probably in the higher-end owing to the small user base.

At around the same time as the article was published, impeached Brazilian president Rousseff gave her testimony on the choice of JAS 39E/F Gripen for the Brazilian Air Force. At 1:25 and forward in the video below, she describes the Rafale as having “extremely high” maintenance costs (compared to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and JAS 39E Gripen).

The Rafale is significantly easier to maintain compared to the Mirage 2000, mainly thanks to the automated fault detection software and smarter component layout of the Rafale. In practice, maintenance tasks are further in between and each individual task takes roughly half the time they did on the Mirage. Depot-level maintenance has also disappeared altogether. The Finnish comment from 25 years ago puzzles me. It seems this would indicate some kind of major difference in how maintenance was handled between the US Navy (for the Hornet) and the Armée de l’air (for the Mirage). I am unsure what kind of difference this would have been, and whether it still exists and affects the chances of the Rafale in HX.

Dassault is also looking over how the maintainers are trained, bringing something as rare as a maintenance simulator into play. The Oculus Rift-based software was demonstrated in Finland at the Kaviopuisto Air Show. The idea is that an instructor together with up to ten trainees can inspect a complete colour coded Rafale in virtual reality, where it is possible to move around freely and look at the components being discussed, without being restricted by the size of how many pairs of eyes can look through an open maintenance hatch at the same time. Being able to pass through structures and look at how different components connect together to form the complete system is also a significant benefit. The system has been pioneered on the Dassault Falcon-series of business jets, and is currently being rolled out for Rafale training.

For Rousseff, she obviously has an interest in painting the decision to buy Gripen as a clear-cut case. However, together the two reports does create the impression that this might not be the French fighter’s strongest point after all. I tried to contact Dassault for a comment, but have unfortunately not received a reply (possibly due to summer vacations). This will likely be a point that the blog will return to in the future.

Another point of great interest is the recent carrier-based operations over Syria and Iraq. A great write up on these can be found at the Liveifst-blog by Shiv Aroor who visited the homebase of 11F, one of three Rafale M units, at Landivisiau. An interesting tidbit is the description of a mission by two Rafale M to intercept and record the attack mode of the Su-33’s N001K radar when the carrier-borne fighters were operating of the Admiral Kuznetsov over Syria in 2016. The mission eventually ended in success, with the Rafale’s integrated SPECTRA electronic warfare system now featuring yet another radar mode in it’s library.

https://corporalfrisk.com/2017/08/06/a-gust-from-the-south/amp/

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Il y a 7 heures, Ponto Combo a dit :

Les commentaires sont intéressants à regarder car ils sont montrent la tendance de l'opinion générale (et c'est pas gagné).

Ce n'est pas si mal, quand même !

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Ca semble se jouer entre gripen et F35. le rafale semble être l'outsider, je dirais que c 'est à l'avantage du F35 pour des raisons politiques malheureusement. certains pense que le F35 est moins cher que le rafale. comme quoi la com LM ca marche.

Edited by zx

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à l’instant, Boule75 a dit :

Ce n'est pas si mal, quand même !

Le tenancier a l'air plutôt impressionné par le Rafale. C'est un gars qui est d'une minorité suédoise.

Je suis d'accord avec ZX que le Rafale est l'outsider.

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